LeaderImpact Podcast
LeaderImpact Podcast
Ep. 73 - Dr. Hall & Dr. Campbell - Effective Faith Driven Leadership
Can Christian business leaders truly excel in the corporate world without compromising their beliefs? In this episode of the LeaderImpact podcast, we dive deep into the principles of effective Christian business leadership with insights from Dr. Rick Hall and Dr. Lita Taylor-Campbell. Their experience as educators and leaders in their respective fields provides a unique perspective on navigating the complexities of leading with faith in today's business environment. At the core of their discussion are the principles that guide Christian leaders in fostering both a productive workplace and a culture of integrity.
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Speaker 3:I'm your host, lisa Peters, and our guests today are Dr Rick Hall and Dr Lita Taylor-Campbell. Dr Hall is a professor and director of business leadership and healthcare administration at Colorado Christian University. He is a co-owner of a dietary supplement company and website publishing company. His work has been published in the Journal of Academy of Nutrition and Dietetics, the Journal of Medical Internet Research and the Asian Wall Street Journal and Better Homes and Gardens. We also welcome to the show Dr Campbell, who is a professor and director of human resources, public administration and non-profit management at Colorado Christian University. She is the president and founder of a national management consulting company and runs a strategic learning and thinking services non-profit. Her work has been published in the Journal of Human Resources and the Journal of Organizational Behavior. She has also presented and published for the Society of Human Resource Management, the Small Business Administration, the Association of Talent Development, the Small Business Development Center and the ACBSP Women's Leadership Summit. Welcome to the show, dr Hall and Dr Campbell.
Speaker 3:It's nice to have you was oh well, thank you. I was very excited when I found an article and uh on on the website that on the colorado christian university, and I just thought I really want to talk to someone about this. So I you know, I'm thankful that you guys joined me. Um, you have, you have a great uh, your introduction is amazing and, and, dr Hall, I think I've told you my daughter is going to be a registered dietitian and loves it and breathes it, so I was very excited to touch base with you.
Speaker 3:Pre-meeting was by Michael Zigarelli and he talks about Christian-owned businesses and in his book he talks about the eight different ways that businesses live out their faith and he also talks about the 100 best practices. So I'm very excited to talk to you guys about principles for effective Christian business leadership. I think sometimes and I don't know if anyone can answer are there ever any myths people think about when we think about Christian leaders and Christian business leaders? Do you guys ever hear any myths of? Oh yeah, you must be. Is there ever anything like that?
Speaker 1:So, as a consultant, I can tell you that I apologize for my voice. I have a cold. But as a consultant, I can tell you that I apologize for my voice. I have a cold. But as a consultant, I can tell you that many times when organizations reach out and want assistance, they're concerned that a Christian might limit their abilities to do all the things.
Speaker 1:I don't know where that comes from, but I work really hard to quickly dispel that understanding or that perception, because it really actually doesn't have anything to do with what we would recommend or suggest or accept that. It's rooted in some of the principles that we'll talk about today.
Speaker 3:Yeah, because we all really like the bottom line. We do, dr Hall, any comments on any myths that you've?
Speaker 2:heard any myths that you've heard. Well, I think there's an underlying understanding or belief that Christians have everything figured out, and I think we put that on ourselves as well, and the reality is we are still human and we still make mistakes, we still are sinful creatures, and so, as part of the workforce, I think that the exciting thing is that we have a blueprint or we have a owner's manual to go to that can kind of steer us right. But I think that's something that I think of and hear of is people feeling that at some reason, we are at a higher standard or that we should have things figured out already.
Speaker 3:Yeah, and we don't Just saying Run my own business, we don't. So again, thank you. I'm going to jump right in because we only have, you know, say, 30 minutes. But, dr Campbell, you talk about, you have talked about understanding your employees. I want to talk a little bit about that, because that is, that's a principle, principle for business. I mean really, it's a principle for everyone, right, right.
Speaker 1:I truly believe that that's really where it all starts, and I think it starts even before that.
Speaker 1:You have to understand the work that you're in business to do and your mission and your values as an organization before you can really understand your employees, because you can't hire correctly if you don't hire for the right things, and so it starts before that.
Speaker 1:But it goes really deep, in my opinion. I've seen it work very well when you really understand your employees to the point where you know what they're interested in and passionate about and what they'd like to grow into and what kind of training they'd like and what new things they'd like to learn about, so that you can really help them, take inventory of what they want to do, so that they can really reach you know for the best them that they can be. And that only comes from understanding, which takes a lot of time, and you know we're all busy and it's hard sometimes. I only have 23 employees, but the clients that I work with have multiple thousands of employees and it's really hard to find the time, but I would argue that it's one of the most the best spent time that you can have is to get to really understand your employees.
Speaker 3:Yeah, sometimes we definitely rush in to hiring and go like we need an employee versus, as you saying, understanding. Dr Hall, do you have anything to add on to understanding your employees?
Speaker 2:I think what's unique about us as Christian managers is that we also have the understanding that these are also God's children, you know, and that when we look at employees and we look at potential hires, we also recognize that they were created by God and that, you know. I think we also look at grace differently when it comes to you know. Like I said, we all make mistakes and I think I'm hopeful that Christian leaders have a little bit deeper understanding of what grace means, both in the workforce and outside of the workforce, when it relates to our employees as well.
Speaker 3:Yeah, and I think, really helping finding our employees, finding their calling, finding what they're really good at, and understanding that their growth, they're moving their passions along and I hope but anything else to add on that, and I definitely want to jump in. There's you guys, this article is fantastic. We'll reference it at the end. But yeah, dr Hall, I definitely want to jump in. There's you guys, this article is fantastic, we'll reference it at the end. But yeah, dr Hall, I know you talked about focusing on integrity and I, you know, tell us a little bit about that and how you feel it's definitely.
Speaker 2:Well, I feel like we, as Christian leaders, need to hold ourselves to a higher standard because, you know, at the end of the day especially if people know that we are believers and I think that integrity is important for all managers, all leaders. But we, as Christian leaders, need to hold ourselves at a higher standard and recognizing that the role that we fill is very fluid, but it's also very. It demonstrates who we are as believers, as leaders, and if our customers, if our employees, if our coworkers know that we're believers, I think we need to hold ourselves to a higher standard. So I think integrity is really important for Christian leaders. For that reason, yeah, For me.
Speaker 3:When I hear that and we hold ourselves to a higher standard, the perfectionism seeks into me. Dr Campbell, I can see you nodding and then I want to be so good.
Speaker 1:Well, and I'm not I'm not so sure that that's just a Christian thing. I think, as a leader, we put this, this burden, on ourselves. If we want to be effective, we have to understand that we're setting the tone and you know we're setting the example and I, for me, the place where I go first is always the Bible. I go to scripture to understand why am I struggling with this particular thing? How come this is more difficult than this other thing is? But you're right, perfectionism can really get in our head and mess us up. If we keep our passion for Christ and our understanding of what he would do in the situations we are in at the forefront in our heart, I think we're doing a better job of setting that tone.
Speaker 3:Yeah, and Dr Cole, when you oh go ahead.
Speaker 2:Well, part of integrity is also admitting your mistakes. So integrity doesn't mean we're perfect or that we should even try to be, because we're not going to be. We should do our best. Yeah, I believe integrity is being honest and recognizing that you know, some of the best leaders I've ever had are ones that are quick to apologize and quick to admit when they've made a mistake, because everyone can see that we make mistakes. But being willing to be transparent through that, I think, is what's important and that, to me, that's a higher level of integrity than being perfect.
Speaker 1:Yeah. So ironically, dr Hall came and talked to one of my on-ground entrepreneurship classes and one of the things that came up was you know making mistakes and how you learn from them and and how you grow from them. And my students are still talking about this was weeks ago and my still my students are still talking about. No one's ever really said it's good to make mistakes and it is. I mean, how else are you going to learn? But that comes with that requirement to have that integrity to say, yeah, I messed that up, but here's what I'm going to do differently next time. And I agree, I don't think seeking perfection is the right thing. I think seeking learning and being able to critically assess what we've done in the past, to do it again if it was the right thing and do it differently if it wasn't and I loved watching young people grab onto the fact that making mistakes was really innovation innovation.
Speaker 3:Wow, yeah, we talk a lot of that, about that, on this podcast. Just, you know, we learn more from our mistakes and failures than we do from our successes. So, yeah, I thank you for just you know bringing that up here in the context of I appreciate that In the article you also talked about following follow the golden rule, so let's talk a little bit about that.
Speaker 1:So I smile when you say that, because often, when I'm working with clients, they're under pressure for something. You know, something has happened to make them think that a consultant can fix it.
Speaker 1:When in reality I think most of the times they have the perfect talent within, they have the ability within their own organization to make. I mean I'm glad that own organization to make. I mean I'm glad that they come to the outside, obviously, to seek guidance. But I think one of the things that gets them stuck is that they forget, as humans, there are other humans that they're working with and, honestly, people don't wake up in the morning wanting to do bad things in the wrong way. They wake up wanting to do things that make a difference and have an impact.
Speaker 1:And if we can just remember that, if we treat them the way we want it to be treated, it simply just makes the world a better place to make mistakes. And I love Dr Hall's statement about you know we have to use grace differently, we have to appreciate it and embrace it a little bit differently as Christians. And that is so true and it's not easy. I mean that comes with forgiveness of ourselves and of others as well. And I think that you know it really is important for us to understand we're people, they're people and we all have a way in which we would prefer to be treated as opposed to just you know naturally reacting to the way we thought we were treated.
Speaker 3:Yeah, dr Hall, anything on following the golden rule.
Speaker 2:Well, it's funny because, you know, dr Campbell and I are both business owners, but we're also, you know, instructors, and you know we have students who need grace a lot and I've had students who, have, you know, really struggled to get through classes or really struggled to get through school.
Speaker 2:And they'll have, you know, some have excuses and reasons that you may or may not believe, but there's often cases where these are in fact a lot of our students are actually working and so they're in the professional world as well, and their lives get messy sometimes and there's need sometimes for grace, recognizing that when things go badly for people whether it's personal life or business life or family life sometimes they need grace, and we need to acknowledge that and recognize that there are other times in our lives where we need grace and we need people to believe in us and we need people to treat us humanely in situations that are sometimes very difficult. And so I think we approach this all the time and this is really important for us to remember that we do want to treat people the way that we expect to be treated and want to be treated and treat them as children of God, and I think if we keep that perspective in mind, I think we're more willing to give that grace when it's needed.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I think your students are very lucky and your employees are very lucky to have you, that they have someone, that when they feel the guilt or they need grace or they're overwhelmed regret, they can come to you. I think there's many, I think of my friends and my leadership groups and that's why we have leader impacts. We had no one right. We need someone who will give us that time and we have leader impacts. We have. We had no one right. We need someone who will, who will give us that that time and that just to listen. So I don't know, when you're consulting and someone a leader doesn't have someone, they come to you as a consultant, but where else are they going, you know, and honestly I can say, like, go to church, that's not, that's not if they've never been to a church. You know, I don't know what do we tell our friends if they don't have somebody who they trust?
Speaker 1:I think one of the things that trust grows out of is action and behaviors, and so if there isn't any, there aren't any behaviors or actions that are happening in the workplace that show you can trust and people aren't going to trust. So there's nothing wrong with having a conversation, managing up if you need to and I encourage my employees and when I was in the corporate world I did the same thing. I tried to have a voice managing up so that they can understand who I was and what I could bring, but doing it while still being humble and professional. And I do think we all need somebody that we can talk to. We were talking in my small group at church over the weekend about this. It's a group of women who are in leadership roles and often feel very lonely because they're in this leadership role and they don't really feel like there's other folks that they can talk to who are like-minded, and we came to the conclusion that how do you know you don't have somebody else to talk to?
Speaker 3:other than.
Speaker 1:God, of course, if you don't ask and I think that's really important If you feel like you need someone to talk to, there's nothing wrong with asking hey, can I bend your ear for a minute and talk about something I'm struggling with? Whether it's somebody you've met through LinkedIn, or a church or another organization, the only way to build relationship is to show relationship.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think also, especially in the business world, it's really important to find your tribe. If you will, and you know, and for some people it could be joining a peer group, for others it could be creating one, you know, if you don't have, you know, I've created a mind master group years ago and where we just like get together with people, like-minded and different fields sometimes, and but all kind of CEO types or manager types of folks and people that I highly respected and we just got together once a month and to share it with each other. Something I'm struggling with, something I've learned, something that I need help with, and it's amazing what comes out of that. If you just share with other people, people generally want to help each other and you can have three or four people get together and if everyone's vulnerable and willing to say, well, this is what I'm struggling with, everybody else will pour into you and we just we would leave those meetings and send emails to each other for days saying this is like amazing, like what I've, what I've gained from that.
Speaker 2:I do think we're designed to be together and be with other people, be with other believers sometimes, and so, whether that's a church or or in a Bible study or some type of business peer group. Um, I think it's really important to to find that tribe and if you don't have one to join, create one. Yeah, that's my, that's my opinion one to join, create one.
Speaker 3:Yeah, that's my opinion. Yeah, during COVID, I created an online group and invited anyone in my province like, join us, mostly just because of the time change, right, because we're going to meet at seven in the morning online and it was amazing. And it's believers and non-believers, but there's always a faith component and they stay because we care about each other. Do you ever find that? So your group is? It are the leaders? Did they ever know each other? Cause, sometimes I think it's a. It's actually almost better if I don't know you and I don't you know. I know your industry, but I don't have to know you to support you and love you.
Speaker 2:Well, I think those bonds happen If you don't already know each other, which often is the start. Once you start being vulnerable with each other, those bonds happen very quickly. Dr Campbell and I are also involved in our college. Within the university has a team that all directors who meet every Wednesday and we have a Bible study together, and I think we are closer as a group because of it together, and I think you know we are closer as a group because of it, and so I think those weekly frequent meetings of people is very important and it clearly is something that we're designed to do because we get so much out of it and everyone feels every time they leave that we've been refreshed because of it.
Speaker 3:Yeah, Dr Campbell. Any final thoughts before I go on to my next topic?
Speaker 1:I think that community piece is just really huge. I often am surprised to realize again and again and again how big our mission field is. In business, I personally believe it's the largest mission field on the planet. We get the opportunity to show through our actions and our behaviors what it is like to be a Christian and to approach the world through a Christian worldview, and that community is the only thing that keeps it going. And you know, humbleness is really important for us to get. You know, show, as Dr Hall said, show our vulnerabilities so that you know, when we're working with people, if they're vulnerable too, they feel okay with sharing.
Speaker 3:And Dr Hall, I appreciate that. You just said you know, if you don't have a group, find a group. Find something online. Do your research. There's lots of us out there, you know that's right. Find a group, yeah, so I appreciate that. Dr Campbell, we talked a little bit about just making those ethical decisions. Tell us where are you going. You know I get it, but tell us a little bit more about that.
Speaker 1:So I started very young in the corporate world and got promoted very quickly. I don't know what the reason behind that was. I remember thinking are you sure, when I got promoted and I didn't know how to make decisions, I absolutely wasn't sure what process to use, or you know, and I was making decisions that I felt were well above my age and my maturity, and and so I started turning to scripture and for me that really, really worked, and I do it to this day. You know, I made some pretty big mistakes before I started doing that and and I realized that, you know, I've got to figure out something different.
Speaker 1:When I'm making decisions, I can't be emotional. I can't be. You know, I've read all the books, I have a lot of education. All of that stuff was not nearly as important as rooting myself in scripture, and so once I started doing that, I felt much more grounded in how I was making my decisions, and I think that's where the comments in the article came from. I think one of the questions was have you ever made a decision where you weren't quite sure about? Yes, we all have, and yes, I've made mistakes, but I think I feel much more confident when, at least on the ethical side of things when I'm rooted in scripture as opposed to just emotionally knee, emotionally knee jerk reacting to making a decision?
Speaker 3:Yeah, Making those assumptions without talking to anyone. You know, Dr Hall, anything to add on making ethical decisions?
Speaker 2:Well, when I, you know, I taught at a public university for several years and the, you know, the topic of ethics came up and I would ask students you know what is, you know how do you define ethics? And you know one of the better decisions, one of the better um comments that people or conclusions they come up with, is doing the right thing when no one's watching, and and I think that's a good definition in general. But we know, as believers, that God's always watching and so we have it's not really no one's watching. We know that the behavior that we do matters and that you know again, we're sinful, we're apt to make mistakes, but we know that we are being watched and we also know that we're called to be ethical. And so if you look at Psalm 112.5, it says it is well with a man who deals generously and who conducts his favors with justice or his affairs with justice.
Speaker 2:You can find countless verses discussing topics related to being honest and being ethical. And I think because of that, we have this DNA strand that is inside of us that makes us seek honesty and seek ethical behavior. We don't get it right all the time and I think there's so many circumstances that you'll come into in your business world. That some people may think is an ethical behavior and some people may not think is an ethical behavior.
Speaker 2:There's almost a spectrum of what we think is okay and what we think is not okay and I think as we grow as business leaders, we grow as Christians. Some of those things evolve and change in a positive way. But I think that additional step of being a believer makes us even want to be stronger in our belief system with relation to honesty and integrity.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I think one of the most important ethical decisions we make as leaders is who we hire, and it takes time and it's hard to hire ethically and to hire the right people for the right jobs.
Speaker 1:It doesn't matter how many people that you have or what their skills are, what their capabilities are, if you're not putting them in the right job and you're not truly understanding the work that needs to be done, you can't make as ethical decisions as you could, and hiring ethically is a really a huge challenge, because we want to fill that job, we need people right. And it's tough right now and I think sometimes we just go okay, well, that's good enough. Well, if we really stay true to our organizational values you know, working for a Christian university running a Christian company we have to stop and take the time to make that very important ethical decision to hire the right people aligned with our values of the organization.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I think of the person that's applying for the job thinking I am the person for the job, hire me, and maybe they haven't really thought about their own. Is this really what you know? Is this really what I want as a person applying, because I know that I can sell myself quite fine and convince you and influence you that you should hire me but really is it the right answer? And so I appreciate that. Just, you know, right from the very beginning you talked about understand your employees right, make those ethical decisions on hiring them. Dr Hall, earlier you talked about and I'm just going to touch on just staying humble as Christian leaders. Staying humble, what does that look like in the CEO of a company, the senior leadership team, matt, what does it look like to stay humble?
Speaker 2:Well, it's obviously hard for many of us. I mean many narcissistic people end up in leadership roles, and I think part of being a good, effective leader is having confidence. And so having high confidence doesn't mean you're not humble, but I think often it could be conflated and maybe look differently for some people. I think part mostly for me in leadership it's recognizing and demonstrating that the team around you is a significant part of the success of the organization and giving that, giving the credit to those who deserve it. And you know, people will stay in companies for less pay if they feel recognized.
Speaker 2:And so when leaders on the opposite end of that, when leaders take all the credit for a thing, for the success of the company, and not for anything that goes wrong, I think that chases people away. It does chase people away, and so for me, being humble is not lack of confidence. It's recognizing number one, being willing to make those mistakes and admitting to them. But number two is recognizing and demonstrating that the people around you are for what they're doing and for what they're accomplishing, and giving credit to them. That makes them want to perform even better. And so it's not someone who takes credit for all the things that go right and nothing that goes wrong. And so I think, as a leader, I've seen myself evolve into that and I've seen others. The effective leaders surround themselves with strong people and then gives credit to those people, and quickly, and that's very motivating for them.
Speaker 3:Yeah, great comment, dr Campbell. Anything to add?
Speaker 1:Yeah, I think one of the most important things to do as a leader is to celebrate the success of your team and champion their growth, even if they grow well beyond you. I'm fortunate to be blessed with a team that hasn't turned over at all in almost 20 years, and I think that is because they have been able to accomplish huge successful things on their own and then bring that back to the team, and your team's success is who you are. It takes a village for everything. I always equate it to parenting. I have four adult children and I remember having absolutely zero clue what to do. I mean, all parents go through that right, Especially when they're teenagers. We just kind of go okay, what do I do with that? Well, if you're humble enough and have the integrity to go to your people and say I don't know how to do this, let's talk it through and figure it out together. It is so much stronger because everyone's bought into it and they want to be successful.
Speaker 3:Yeah, we have to get over the embarrassment of not knowing that I don't know what to do, Like as a first time parent who, you know, I didn't know what to do. But I remember being embarrassed thinking I'm just going to, you know, I'm going to do this myself and that's not the answer. And I think people listening, we think we can do it ourselves and we can't. So I want to thank both of you. I know there's so much more in this article. You guys have done a great job collaborating on this article. I think you've made a difference to our listeners today. You've made an impact, and that's what we're about at Leader Impact. I was looking forward to this. We talk about leadership what it looks like, but really deep down, what are the principles of a Christian leader? So thank you for spending the time with me today. If anyone wants to find you, contact you, Dr Hall. How can they find you or what's the best place?
Speaker 2:Well, I mean, I'd love to be connected with you. So LinkedIn is a good option. You can look for Rick Hall at Colorado Christian University. You can also go to ccuedu, look for the faculty spotlights and then you can find our email addresses there as well. Happy to connect with anyone.
Speaker 3:That sounds fabulous, and Dr Campbell.
Speaker 1:I'm at Lita Taylor Campbell on LinkedIn and also on the CCU website.
Speaker 3:All right. Well, again, thank you both for just sharing this time with us. It just makes me smile, and I show up every time just because I need to be here. I don't have all the answers yet either, so thank you All right. Well, I want to thank all of our listeners for joining us today.
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